Snoop Dogg’s In The Miz-osque

Pookie may not ever win any penmanship awards, but that doesn’t detract from the beauty of her writing. Within the past year or so, she’s taken to leaving her mother and me notes, usually in the kitchen to prohibit us from various sweets she’s classified as hers and hers only. Whenever I run across one of her communiques, I know I’m in for a treat, even if the note’s purpose is to actually deny me one.

Accordingly, I was tickled pink when I found one of her sloppily written doctrines the other night. But my delight quickly disappeared as I read the downward-tilting and crooked verse of her scribblings. It was the lyrics to Katie Perry’s California Gurls — more specifically, Snoop Dogg’s part.

Color me old school, but no little girl should ever write all that ass, hangin’ out. Ever. Speaking of hangin’, y’all hang tight. I gotta puke real quick.

K. I’m back. *wipes mouth with Kleenex.* Where was I?

I’ll tell you where I was — smack dab in the middle of a crisis. One which I can no longer ignore. Pookie’s been asking me for months to download various (and morally questionable) songs on her iPod, California Gurls among them. And maybe I’m just a big prude, but I’ve found it difficult to give my pony-tail-sporting daughter unfettered access to tunes such as Jerimiah’s Birthday Sex. So I’ve been putting her off.

But truth be told, I’m split right down the middle on this one. On the one hand, many of today’s popular songs contain lyrics dripping with age-inappropriate themes. And while I realize that Pook probably isn’t catching the double entendre when Katie belts out Sun-kissed skin so hot, we’ll melt your popsicle, I’d still rather she not be exposed to veiled fellatio references (or is it coitus?), thank you very much. Hell, I’m having a hard enough time with her John Stamos obsession. (Damn you, Nikelodeon.)

But on the other hand, songs containing sexually explicit themes, misogynistic lyrics, and drug references are hardly anything new. Recently, Elise LeQuire White shared with me a comical essay she once wrote about super-cheesy songs. One of those referenced was a tune I’d not thought of in years — Sammy John’s Chevy Van. Reading Elise’s cleverly penned column reminded me just how much I loved that song when I was in kindergarten. Its premise? Sammy is driving around one day in his Chevy van when he stops to pick up some random-ass, hitch-hiking chick who naps innocently for a bit in his front seat. Before waking up, that is, at which point she grabs the singer “by the hand.” Next thing you know it, ol’ Sammy’s relentlessly banging this nomadic nymphomaniac in the back of his (presumably disgusting and pimped out) vehicle. Hardly an appropriate song for a five-year-old to know by heart, yet I turned out okay, right?

Crickets.

My point? Just as I was during the seventies, Pookie’s getting plenty of exposure to today’s pop culture regardless of what I do. Her bio dad’s girlfriend has much older children. Each and every time she returns from his house, she’s learned something new, most likely from one of these older kids whom she idolizes. Not that I’m blaming her dad (or his girlfriend) at all. I was the youngest of five, so I get it. You think I discovered Chevy Van all by myself? So if Pookie is going to stumble upon the very things I’m trying to shield her from in the first place, why even bother?

* * *

The other day, I read a wonderful post by one of my fellow speakers at next month’s M3 Summit in Atlanta, Jason Falls. His topic was a controversial one — the proposed thirteen-story Manhattan Islamic community center just two blocks from ground zero. Jason’s take was as succinct as it was clear. “Religious zealots,” he writes, “are to blame for the events of Sept. 11, 2001. They were extremists of their religion. Religious zealots were to blame for the events of Nov. 18, 1978. (the Jonestown Massacre) They were extremists of their religion. Blaming 9/11 on Muslims is like blaming Jonestown on Methodists. You’re generalizing and stereotyping and dividing our country. And you’re helping the cause not of Muslims, but of the extremists.”

I couldn’t agree with Jason any more. The day our country decides where various places of worship belong and where they do not will be a sad one, indeed. For it will mean that our government will have imposed the power of censorship on its citizens, thus rendering the first amendment — the right to gather and convene, as well as freedom of speech — impotent. And I don’t mean to get all John Milton on you, but his appeal to Parliament in 1644 to rescind government-sanctioned censorship, Areopagitica, is widely regarded as the best argument ever made against censorship of any kind. I was required to read excerpts from it for one of my high school English classes. It struck a chord with me then, and it still strikes a chord with me now.

Why? Because I’m all about freedom of speech. So given that, I can’t help but wonder why I’m all undone about a few age-inappropriate lyrics my nine-year-old probably doesn’t even understand just yet.

The answer is a simple one. I don’t want my little girl to grow up mistaking misogynistic sentiments as healthy ones. I don’t want her goal in life to be a sought-after piece of scantily-clad ass. I don’t want her to aspire to be the momentary apple of someone like Snoop Dogg’s eye when, in California Gurls, he raps kiss her, touch her, squeeze her buns. (By the way Snoop, buns? Really?)

* * *

So what should I do? Pull a Tipper Gore and censor everything my daughter listens to? Even though I know she’ll easily gain access to it regardless of my efforts? Because that’s essentially what I’ve been doing by putting her off, censoring, that is, and it obviously isn’t working. Thanks to the internet, she’s mere keystrokes away from pulling up any number of vulgar things, no matter how many safety features we employ on our computer. (By the way, does anyone else find it ironic that the queen of censorship was married to the guy who invented the anything-but-censored internet?)

So censorship? No. If I object to it in Manhattan, why should I employ it in my home? Instead, I think I’ll take off my Hypocrite Panties and allow my daughter access to the media she’s hell-bent on accessing anyway. Will I keep my eye on her? You bet. Will I impose limits on her? Of course. But will I censor her? No. Anyone who reads my blog regularly knows that I’m a man of faith. So I’ll lean heavily on it and trust that the strength of our family and the direction it provides will be sufficient enough to preclude Pookie from the miswired legions of her generation who will eventually get swept away in a sea of pop culture superficiality. I’ll stay as plugged in as I can to the things she likes, enough, at least, to be able to chime in with my two cents each and every time the opportunity presents itself.

By doing so, I’ll be a bigger part of her life than I would be if I were to simply deny her access to any and everything that doesn’t completely jive with the values I’m hoping she’ll one day embrace. By doing so, I’ll be better plugged in to her and the issues she’ll face as she creeps ever closer toward adolescence. By doing so, I’ll likely be able to keep an even closer eye on her as she won’t be forced to go behind my back to sneak a forbidden cookie from the alluring jar.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have some songs to download. And while I’m not necessarily thrilled about it, at least there’s a silver lining.

None of them are sung by Justin Bieber. That kid gives me the creeps.

Related Posts with Thumbnails
About john cave osborne

John Cave Osborne is a writer whose work has appeared on such sites as DisneyBaby, Babble, YahooShine, TLC and the Huffington Post. He was also referenced by Jezebel one time, but he’s pretty sure they were making fun of him. He and his wife, Caroline, live with their five children and spastic dog in Knoxville, TN. Nothing annoys him more than joke-heavy bios written in the third person, with the possible exception of Corey Feldman.

  • Claire

    Loved this one!! Everything about it! Thanks for the smile!

  • Claire

    Loved this one!! Everything about it! Thanks for the smile!

  • MW

    I don’t want to get (as Dr. Laura would call it) “all NAACP” on you, but what does your daughter’s “fair skin” have to do with it being okay or not okay to listen to this music? If she had darker skin, would it be okay for her to be corrupted by terrible pop music with some rap in it?

    Just asking.

    • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

      fair skin, in no way, had anything to do with race, but rather an attempt to juxtapose the innocence of pookie with the profanity of the songs in question. but i can understand the confusion, so i took it out. thank you for reading and for pointing that out.

  • MW

    I don’t want to get (as Dr. Laura would call it) “all NAACP” on you, but what does your daughter’s “fair skin” have to do with it being okay or not okay to listen to this music? If she had darker skin, would it be okay for her to be corrupted by terrible pop music with some rap in it?

    Just asking.

    • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

      fair skin, in no way, had anything to do with race, but rather an attempt to juxtapose the innocence of pookie with the profanity of the songs in question. but i can understand the confusion, so i took it out. thank you for reading and for pointing that out.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    Not a fan of the mosque. Not a fan of it at all. I don’t think that every Muslim is bad, evil or interested in malfeasance.

    But I think that this is a bad idea from start to finish. We’re too close to 9-11, not a decade out yet. We don’t have perspective. We have anger and hurt.

    We have a situation that is bad all around for a host of reasons- but I wouldn’t tie any of that into Pookie and music.

    You are a good father and a good man. Anyhoo, that is enough for now.

    • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

      i expect to take some heat for my stance on the mosque. it’s my belief that, regardless of whether or not you’re a fan of the idea, the first amendment permits it to exist.

      like many of us, i lost a friend on 9/11 who worked in the WTC. i understand where you’re coming from and i can’t honestly say that i don’t have any misgivings about the idea. i do. still, according to our constitution, it should be allowed to be built if all the proper channels are negotiated. and ultimately, regardless of whatever personal biases i may have, i defer to our constitution.

      i tied it into this situation with pookie b/c after reading jason’s post, i realized that i was being a big hypocrite. one cannot selectively choose when to honor freedom of speech / right to convene.

      you’re a good man, jack. thank you for the comment.

      • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

        Blogged about this a while back
        http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/2010/07/mosque-at-ground-zero-just-say-no.html

        Been thinking about it since and mulling it over. I agree completely that we need to respect the Constitution but I think that this might fall under a different category.

        I’d call it just because you can doesn’t mean that you should. It is a thorny issue for me. I am a believer in the Marketplace of Ideas.

        But this also involves a group of people who do not think as we do. They don’t see the world through a Western perspective. They have hijacked a religion and made it into something other than what others would like it to be.

        And I am not interested in giving them any sense of accomplishment or foothold here. It is troubling because we don’t want to engage in collective punishment. Yet at the same time, are we doing that.

        If we ask that this be moved elsewhere are we punishing Muslims. I am not certain that we are.

        And I’ll throw out that I think of this differently than some other people. Our “friends’ the Saudis won’t let us build a church or synagogue in their little slice of oasis.

        Friends of theirs lob rockets and bombs at my friends and relatives, even missed me on a couple of occasions. So it bothers me a little that they are able to use our system against us.

        Daniel Pearl went to my high school. We grew up in the same neighborhood. I have seen the after effects of some of their efforts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFoLYXzkEyU) so I’ll grant that I am biased.

        Anyway this is getting far too long- my apologies for the length. Not all Muslims are bad, but they have been compromised and the only way their challenges are really going to end will be for them to rid themselves of the extremists.

        • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

          several things here…

          first, let me make this point clear…personally? i find it appalling that the general Muslim population of the US would even let the project get as far as it has gotten. why? b/c of sensitivity issues, obviously. if you’re looking to make americans realize that there’s a difference between the religious zealots who carried out the cowardly attacks on 9/11/2001 and the vast majority of Muslim, it would seem that the last thing you’d wanna do is plop down a $100 million project right next to our country’s permanent scar. so from a PR standpoint, it’s appalling. BUT, if the proper channels are negotiated, then i don’t see how our country can deny access.

          the point of the post was less about the mosque and more about the lyrics. the only reason why i even referenced it was because if i stand where i stand on the islamic center and cite the first amendment as the reason (regardless of how i feel about it personally), then how could i even consider censoring what my own daughter listens to?

          the fact that the Saudis won’t allow a church or synagogue is complete and utter bullshit, obviously, which, paradoxically, furthers my argument. maybe i need to learn more about the people who are behind the manhattan mosque, but unless it’s al-qaeda, then i have no constitutional problem with it. i simply shake my head in wonder at the gall and insensitivity of it all.

          with regard to the video link, i watched every second of it and have no words in response to the sheer horror that i saw. i understand what you mean about muslims needing to rid themselves of their extremists, and you obviously have a different perspective than most that would help you understand that point as much as humanly possible. with great respect, and tremendous compassion, i still submit to you my argument — namely that we cannot forbid folks from peacefully gathering and exercising their faith. to do so would be un-american.

          jack, you know from our past dealings, i’m certain, the tremendous amount of respect and admiration i have for you. i’m truly honored that you shared your important thoughts with me. i look fwd to the day when we can discuss such topics face-to-face, my friend. in my book, you’re exceptional.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    Not a fan of the mosque. Not a fan of it at all. I don’t think that every Muslim is bad, evil or interested in malfeasance.

    But I think that this is a bad idea from start to finish. We’re too close to 9-11, not a decade out yet. We don’t have perspective. We have anger and hurt.

    We have a situation that is bad all around for a host of reasons- but I wouldn’t tie any of that into Pookie and music.

    You are a good father and a good man. Anyhoo, that is enough for now.

    • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

      i expect to take some heat for my stance on the mosque. it’s my belief that, regardless of whether or not you’re a fan of the idea, the first amendment permits it to exist.

      like many of us, i lost a friend on 9/11 who worked in the WTC. i understand where you’re coming from and i can’t honestly say that i don’t have any misgivings about the idea. i do. still, according to our constitution, it should be allowed to be built if all the proper channels are negotiated. and ultimately, regardless of whatever personal biases i may have, i defer to our constitution.

      i tied it into this situation with pookie b/c after reading jason’s post, i realized that i was being a big hypocrite. one cannot selectively choose when to honor freedom of speech / right to convene.

      you’re a good man, jack. thank you for the comment.

      • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

        Blogged about this a while back
        http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/2010/07/mosque-at-ground-zero-just-say-no.html

        Been thinking about it since and mulling it over. I agree completely that we need to respect the Constitution but I think that this might fall under a different category.

        I’d call it just because you can doesn’t mean that you should. It is a thorny issue for me. I am a believer in the Marketplace of Ideas.

        But this also involves a group of people who do not think as we do. They don’t see the world through a Western perspective. They have hijacked a religion and made it into something other than what others would like it to be.

        And I am not interested in giving them any sense of accomplishment or foothold here. It is troubling because we don’t want to engage in collective punishment. Yet at the same time, are we doing that.

        If we ask that this be moved elsewhere are we punishing Muslims. I am not certain that we are.

        And I’ll throw out that I think of this differently than some other people. Our “friends’ the Saudis won’t let us build a church or synagogue in their little slice of oasis.

        Friends of theirs lob rockets and bombs at my friends and relatives, even missed me on a couple of occasions. So it bothers me a little that they are able to use our system against us.

        Daniel Pearl went to my high school. We grew up in the same neighborhood. I have seen the after effects of some of their efforts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFoLYXzkEyU) so I’ll grant that I am biased.

        Anyway this is getting far too long- my apologies for the length. Not all Muslims are bad, but they have been compromised and the only way their challenges are really going to end will be for them to rid themselves of the extremists.

        • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

          several things here…

          first, let me make this point clear…personally? i find it appalling that the general Muslim population of the US would even let the project get as far as it has gotten. why? b/c of sensitivity issues, obviously. if you’re looking to make americans realize that there’s a difference between the religious zealots who carried out the cowardly attacks on 9/11/2001 and the vast majority of Muslim, it would seem that the last thing you’d wanna do is plop down a $100 million project right next to our country’s permanent scar. so from a PR standpoint, it’s appalling. BUT, if the proper channels are negotiated, then i don’t see how our country can deny access.

          the point of the post was less about the mosque and more about the lyrics. the only reason why i even referenced it was because if i stand where i stand on the islamic center and cite the first amendment as the reason (regardless of how i feel about it personally), then how could i even consider censoring what my own daughter listens to?

          the fact that the Saudis won’t allow a church or synagogue is complete and utter bullshit, obviously, which, paradoxically, furthers my argument. maybe i need to learn more about the people who are behind the manhattan mosque, but unless it’s al-qaeda, then i have no constitutional problem with it. i simply shake my head in wonder at the gall and insensitivity of it all.

          with regard to the video link, i watched every second of it and have no words in response to the sheer horror that i saw. i understand what you mean about muslims needing to rid themselves of their extremists, and you obviously have a different perspective than most that would help you understand that point as much as humanly possible. with great respect, and tremendous compassion, i still submit to you my argument — namely that we cannot forbid folks from peacefully gathering and exercising their faith. to do so would be un-american.

          jack, you know from our past dealings, i’m certain, the tremendous amount of respect and admiration i have for you. i’m truly honored that you shared your important thoughts with me. i look fwd to the day when we can discuss such topics face-to-face, my friend. in my book, you’re exceptional.

  • http://thesuburbanscrawl.blogspot.com melisa with one S

    Get out of my head, dude. I am working on a post w/ similar topic for The Music Mamas (so don’t be surprised when I pimp it out to you in due time).

    My strategy with my kids was to tell them that they could listen to what they want, but they were not to discuss or sing lyrics in public.

    I didn’t say anything about writing, though. Oops.

  • http://thesuburbanscrawl.blogspot.com melisa with one S

    Get out of my head, dude. I am working on a post w/ similar topic for The Music Mamas (so don’t be surprised when I pimp it out to you in due time).

    My strategy with my kids was to tell them that they could listen to what they want, but they were not to discuss or sing lyrics in public.

    I didn’t say anything about writing, though. Oops.

  • http://tracey-justanothermommyblog.blogspot.com/ Tracey – JustAnotherMommyBlog

    I agree with you on both stances.

    I hate the HATRED that people are exhibiting towards Muslims. And, the best(worst) part of it all is that the ones with the loudest complaints and anger are the ones professing to be the most God-fearing Christians. The irony of that statement is enough to make you puke again.

    BTW, hope you’re feeling better.

    Music like that makes me cringe. Especially when my 4 year old daughter records herself singing (just yesterday) lyrics to Eminem’s “lick the lollipop” right down to “you make my pee-pee go, a doing-doing-doing.” Lovely! Just what every feminist mother wants! HOWEVER, instead of banning the music and making it more desirable, I sit them down and explain exactly why I hate it so much. I explain what each word means, how they relate to people and groups of people and so on.

    It’s rough. I don’t know exactly where the line should be drawn and I really don’t want the first time they are exposed to hate music (my opinion, any music that degrades women, races, etc. is hate music even if it’s written BY that gender or race, ahem-no-“n”-word-songs) to be on their own or with other kids who don’t understand the connotations.

  • http://tracey-justanothermommyblog.blogspot.com/ Tracey – JustAnotherMommyBlog

    I agree with you on both stances.

    I hate the HATRED that people are exhibiting towards Muslims. And, the best(worst) part of it all is that the ones with the loudest complaints and anger are the ones professing to be the most God-fearing Christians. The irony of that statement is enough to make you puke again.

    BTW, hope you’re feeling better.

    Music like that makes me cringe. Especially when my 4 year old daughter records herself singing (just yesterday) lyrics to Eminem’s “lick the lollipop” right down to “you make my pee-pee go, a doing-doing-doing.” Lovely! Just what every feminist mother wants! HOWEVER, instead of banning the music and making it more desirable, I sit them down and explain exactly why I hate it so much. I explain what each word means, how they relate to people and groups of people and so on.

    It’s rough. I don’t know exactly where the line should be drawn and I really don’t want the first time they are exposed to hate music (my opinion, any music that degrades women, races, etc. is hate music even if it’s written BY that gender or race, ahem-no-“n”-word-songs) to be on their own or with other kids who don’t understand the connotations.

  • SarahB

    I just wanted to stand up and applaud, at both your stances.

    Thank you.

  • SarahB

    I just wanted to stand up and applaud, at both your stances.

    Thank you.

  • Angela

    Brilliant read on both counts. My cousin worked at the WTC on 9/11 and although we are truely blessed, she was safe, we had to wait hours to find out. We can not take one brush and tanish all.

    As for Pookie, I am sure she will be fine, as the mother of a nearly sixteen year old. I had the same discision to make a few years aback. How is she doing now? A strong, steady young woman, lippy, but I would rather that, than her not talking to me or going behind my back.

    Keep up the good work!

  • Angela

    Brilliant read on both counts. My cousin worked at the WTC on 9/11 and although we are truely blessed, she was safe, we had to wait hours to find out. We can not take one brush and tanish all.

    As for Pookie, I am sure she will be fine, as the mother of a nearly sixteen year old. I had the same discision to make a few years aback. How is she doing now? A strong, steady young woman, lippy, but I would rather that, than her not talking to me or going behind my back.

    Keep up the good work!

  • http://www.almightydad.com Keith Wilcox

    Your objection isn’t to the music she’s listening to; we all listen to some pretty subversive stuff. The reason you’re suddenly questioning yourself is because she went a step further than just listening to it and actually regurgitated it on paper. You see that as an adoption of the “culture” and you’re understandably bemused. I would be too. I think if I were in your shoes I wouldn’t censor the music, but I’d have a nice long talk about how musicians operate and how that should not trickle over into our culture and daily speech. I’m betting she just used it without even really considering what she was saying; probably something she heard and thought sounded good. The problem isn’t the music or censorship, it’s considering what we say before we say it. At least I think that’s what my point is. What do you think?

    • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

      what do i think? i think you’re incredibly insightful which is why you’re one of the very best bloggers out there.

      but i don’t necessarily agree with you on this point. believe me when i tell you i’ve always cringed long before pookie took to google to copy offensive lyrics down. what that did do, however, was prove to me that no matter what my personal feelings are, there is information out there that is easily obtained, whether it’s from older kids, three minutes of unsupervised television, or the internet. it pushed me closer to the decision i ultimately made, which is to no longer deny pookie the media she seeks.

      re: nice long talks about how musicians operate and how that should not trickle over into our culture and daily speech? RIGHT ON. that’s exactly what i’m doing.

      it’s always an honor, keith. you, my friend, are a very wise man. thank you for your comment.

  • http://www.almightydad.com Keith Wilcox

    Your objection isn’t to the music she’s listening to; we all listen to some pretty subversive stuff. The reason you’re suddenly questioning yourself is because she went a step further than just listening to it and actually regurgitated it on paper. You see that as an adoption of the “culture” and you’re understandably bemused. I would be too. I think if I were in your shoes I wouldn’t censor the music, but I’d have a nice long talk about how musicians operate and how that should not trickle over into our culture and daily speech. I’m betting she just used it without even really considering what she was saying; probably something she heard and thought sounded good. The problem isn’t the music or censorship, it’s considering what we say before we say it. At least I think that’s what my point is. What do you think?

    • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

      what do i think? i think you’re incredibly insightful which is why you’re one of the very best bloggers out there.

      but i don’t necessarily agree with you on this point. believe me when i tell you i’ve always cringed long before pookie took to google to copy offensive lyrics down. what that did do, however, was prove to me that no matter what my personal feelings are, there is information out there that is easily obtained, whether it’s from older kids, three minutes of unsupervised television, or the internet. it pushed me closer to the decision i ultimately made, which is to no longer deny pookie the media she seeks.

      re: nice long talks about how musicians operate and how that should not trickle over into our culture and daily speech? RIGHT ON. that’s exactly what i’m doing.

      it’s always an honor, keith. you, my friend, are a very wise man. thank you for your comment.

  • Liz

    We just watched the “California Girls” video with our 11-yr-old last week. She had been singing the song and didn’t understand our revulsion. We explained the misogynistic bent and then decided to let Katy Perry herself help us make our point. One look at the video followed by a brief discussion and I think a light bulb went off. Does she still like the song and find herself humming it? Of course! But is our 11-yr-old more aware of how the media is sending her all sorts of nasty messages about who she should be? Yep. And more importantly, she has further evidence that she has parents who are going to talk to her and teach her, not dictate (well, not all the time 😉 and condemn.

  • Liz

    We just watched the “California Girls” video with our 11-yr-old last week. She had been singing the song and didn’t understand our revulsion. We explained the misogynistic bent and then decided to let Katy Perry herself help us make our point. One look at the video followed by a brief discussion and I think a light bulb went off. Does she still like the song and find herself humming it? Of course! But is our 11-yr-old more aware of how the media is sending her all sorts of nasty messages about who she should be? Yep. And more importantly, she has further evidence that she has parents who are going to talk to her and teach her, not dictate (well, not all the time 😉 and condemn.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    John,

    i would have replied in the thread but it wouldn’t let me. Damn. 😉

    I feel the same way. One of these days we’ll grab that drink. But until then let me say that part of why I enjoy speaking with you is that we can have these discussions without all the bullshit that sometimes comes along.

    It is refreshing to just be able to speak.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    John,

    i would have replied in the thread but it wouldn’t let me. Damn. 😉

    I feel the same way. One of these days we’ll grab that drink. But until then let me say that part of why I enjoy speaking with you is that we can have these discussions without all the bullshit that sometimes comes along.

    It is refreshing to just be able to speak.

  • http://lifeofanewdad.blogspot.com Otter321

    I don’t talk politics so no mosque discussion from me other that to say it is in bad taste. The pop culture, music, MTV thing is something that I will struggle with. I am not a big fan of a lot of the things that kids are drawn to these days. I hope I can keep on top of it like you when the time comes.

  • http://lifeofanewdad.blogspot.com Otter321

    I don’t talk politics so no mosque discussion from me other that to say it is in bad taste. The pop culture, music, MTV thing is something that I will struggle with. I am not a big fan of a lot of the things that kids are drawn to these days. I hope I can keep on top of it like you when the time comes.

  • http://butterbeanandcobra.blogspot.com/ beta dad

    I’m dreading the day I have to worry about the lyrics my (now toddling) twin girls listen too, especially since I remember how important music was to me as a kid developing his sense of identity. Hopefully my girls will have more sense than their old man, and realize that you shouldn’t try to *live* the lyrics from the music you love. It seems to be the consensus, among reasonable adults, that the way to deal with kids and the unsavory aspects of media is to share the experience and talk it through, teaching them to be critical consumers.

    I agree with your take on the Mosque issue, although the more I think about it and read about it, the more my initial reaction (“Really? They couldn’t find a better place for it?”) fades and transforms to “maybe it is a pretty good spot for an Islamic center.” In any case, I have not heard a single decent argument for preventing the project from going through. The arguments are exclusively emotional, and although I can empathize with the emotional reaction, there is no denying that they are at their core Islamophobic and xenophobic. Every time I get into an argument about it, my anti-Islamic Center interlocutor makes an argument about why Islam is evil and violent, and then says the reasons have nothing to do with prejudice. There is no legal basis for denying them building permits. I wish people would be more honest and just admit that they are arguing that we should alter our constitution and laws so that we can discriminate against people who we think are dangerous or scary.

    • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

      there is no denying that they are at their core Islamophobic and xenophobic.

      Hold on now- that is not fair to say. I don’t want it built there and it is not because I suffer from either phobias.

      I think it is unfair and unreasonable to characterize either side in terms that are as emotionally laden as that.

      • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

        @betadad — i’m thankful for your comment and understand the sentiments therein. i do think that many who vehemently oppose are, indeed, islamophobic and xenophobic. but just as those who are “pro-mosque” (and again, i’m less pro-mosque but more pro-first-amendment) quickly point out that you can’t paint all muslims with a broad stroke, so, too, must we remember that you can’t paint all of those who are “anti-mosque” with a broad stroke.

        jack is a good man. a man of faith. a man of great thought. and, like keith, one of the best bloggers out there. and i don’t throw that out lightly. i’ve read enough from him and interacted enough with him to know that he is a kind and tolerant man.

        he knows more about the brutality of terror than all of us combined. and his feelings are valid. he’s welcome to express his well-articulated opinion (even when they dissent from mine) on my site anytime.

        and @beta dad, if you’re reading, pls don’t construe this as me piling on to you. rather, read it as me taking issue with that one line of your response and using a good friend as an example to refute it, one who just happens to be on the other side of this (unintended) debate.

        thanks for reading!

  • http://butterbeanandcobra.blogspot.com/ beta dad

    I’m dreading the day I have to worry about the lyrics my (now toddling) twin girls listen too, especially since I remember how important music was to me as a kid developing his sense of identity. Hopefully my girls will have more sense than their old man, and realize that you shouldn’t try to *live* the lyrics from the music you love. It seems to be the consensus, among reasonable adults, that the way to deal with kids and the unsavory aspects of media is to share the experience and talk it through, teaching them to be critical consumers.

    I agree with your take on the Mosque issue, although the more I think about it and read about it, the more my initial reaction (“Really? They couldn’t find a better place for it?”) fades and transforms to “maybe it is a pretty good spot for an Islamic center.” In any case, I have not heard a single decent argument for preventing the project from going through. The arguments are exclusively emotional, and although I can empathize with the emotional reaction, there is no denying that they are at their core Islamophobic and xenophobic. Every time I get into an argument about it, my anti-Islamic Center interlocutor makes an argument about why Islam is evil and violent, and then says the reasons have nothing to do with prejudice. There is no legal basis for denying them building permits. I wish people would be more honest and just admit that they are arguing that we should alter our constitution and laws so that we can discriminate against people who we think are dangerous or scary.

    • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

      there is no denying that they are at their core Islamophobic and xenophobic.

      Hold on now- that is not fair to say. I don’t want it built there and it is not because I suffer from either phobias.

      I think it is unfair and unreasonable to characterize either side in terms that are as emotionally laden as that.

      • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

        @betadad — i’m thankful for your comment and understand the sentiments therein. i do think that many who vehemently oppose are, indeed, islamophobic and xenophobic. but just as those who are “pro-mosque” (and again, i’m less pro-mosque but more pro-first-amendment) quickly point out that you can’t paint all muslims with a broad stroke, so, too, must we remember that you can’t paint all of those who are “anti-mosque” with a broad stroke.

        jack is a good man. a man of faith. a man of great thought. and, like keith, one of the best bloggers out there. and i don’t throw that out lightly. i’ve read enough from him and interacted enough with him to know that he is a kind and tolerant man.

        he knows more about the brutality of terror than all of us combined. and his feelings are valid. he’s welcome to express his well-articulated opinion (even when they dissent from mine) on my site anytime.

        and @beta dad, if you’re reading, pls don’t construe this as me piling on to you. rather, read it as me taking issue with that one line of your response and using a good friend as an example to refute it, one who just happens to be on the other side of this (unintended) debate.

        thanks for reading!

  • Patrick (yeah, that one)

    Hmmm…

    Pookie will hear the music, and denial just increases desire for it. I agree with you on that. Sitting down and listening to it with her and explaining what you don’t like about it and/or why you think it’s not the kind of role anyone should aspire to is a good plan too. She’ll know you’ve taken the time to be interested, and then you’ve taken the time to explain your views on it, good or bad. It’s the involvement in her life that is most important. Anyone can be dictatorial, but there’s much more positive in actual involvement.

    Yeah, I know you know that. Yeah, I know you’re doing that. Just trying to demonstrate my confidence in your parenting skills. :-) Positive reinforcement man, positive reinforcement. :-p

    As for the mosque? I can perhaps understand the drive to have a mosque dedicated to peaceful adherents of a particular faith so close to a place where fanatics supposedly of the same faith committed a horrible and unwarranted crime against civilians. If they are not allowed to be close to the site of such an act, then they are not in a position to show that the fanatical criminals are not representative of their faith. If the mosque is there, perhaps their ability to be in proximity to the site, and to function and interact peaceably and properly as citizens of that neighborhood, that city, and this country and peaceful proponents of their faith, can reduce tensions by showing that this act was done by misguided criminals, not by true believers. However, I fear for criminal actions that may be done in anger against those who belong to that mosque. Such acts would simply serve to widen the gulf between us all.

    We all lost more than we cared to lose on that September day. Whether our loss was in friends, family members, and/or just the belief that we were safe here, we all lost something. Hopefully time will help us all mend, and perhaps the proposed mosque could help. I’m not certain of that either. But I can hope.

  • Patrick (yeah, that one)

    Hmmm…

    Pookie will hear the music, and denial just increases desire for it. I agree with you on that. Sitting down and listening to it with her and explaining what you don’t like about it and/or why you think it’s not the kind of role anyone should aspire to is a good plan too. She’ll know you’ve taken the time to be interested, and then you’ve taken the time to explain your views on it, good or bad. It’s the involvement in her life that is most important. Anyone can be dictatorial, but there’s much more positive in actual involvement.

    Yeah, I know you know that. Yeah, I know you’re doing that. Just trying to demonstrate my confidence in your parenting skills. :-) Positive reinforcement man, positive reinforcement. :-p

    As for the mosque? I can perhaps understand the drive to have a mosque dedicated to peaceful adherents of a particular faith so close to a place where fanatics supposedly of the same faith committed a horrible and unwarranted crime against civilians. If they are not allowed to be close to the site of such an act, then they are not in a position to show that the fanatical criminals are not representative of their faith. If the mosque is there, perhaps their ability to be in proximity to the site, and to function and interact peaceably and properly as citizens of that neighborhood, that city, and this country and peaceful proponents of their faith, can reduce tensions by showing that this act was done by misguided criminals, not by true believers. However, I fear for criminal actions that may be done in anger against those who belong to that mosque. Such acts would simply serve to widen the gulf between us all.

    We all lost more than we cared to lose on that September day. Whether our loss was in friends, family members, and/or just the belief that we were safe here, we all lost something. Hopefully time will help us all mend, and perhaps the proposed mosque could help. I’m not certain of that either. But I can hope.

  • Stacie Keller

    Hey John, You are currently living something I dread in my future and you raise some great points and I definitely respect your always thoughtful persepctive…

    Although I say censor her and shelter her… I think I was the last person on earth to learn that Vanilla Ice was actually white. My parents forbid MTV (and that was back in the day when they actually played music videos and not the trash that is on there now).

    My point being I think I turned out to be a well-rounded teenager and adult and didn’t feel the least bit rebellious because I wasn’t able to listen to or watch scantily clad women on Sir Mix a-Lot’s Baby Got Back video. There is just to much out there right now for a pre-teen girl to comprehend and digest in a healthy way. I believe that is my job as a parent.

    And if your worried about her “hating” you or thinking you aren’t the “cool” dad…I promise she will get over it.

    Just my two-cents…which isn’t worth much! Great writing!

    • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

      stacie,

      you and i are the two extremes. you saw nothing because of heavy parent involvement, and i saw everything because of very little parent involvement.

      i think there’s a middle ground. namely, let them see it, but be there while they do it.

      believe me when i tell you one thing…pookie thinks i’m a colossal dork. so i’m not worried, at all, about being perceived as cool. the product of a divorce and over-indulgent relatives who literally buy her any and every single thing she wants, at times, she’s dangerously close to mistaking her privileged environment for one of entitlement.

      that’s where Lovie and i come in. we say “no” way more than we say “yes.” we hold her accountable and make her see her commitments through, when most others in her life take the path of least resistance. so i lost my “cool” card long, long ago.

      hope you’re well, and thank you so much for the comment!

  • Stacie Keller

    Hey John, You are currently living something I dread in my future and you raise some great points and I definitely respect your always thoughtful persepctive…

    Although I say censor her and shelter her… I think I was the last person on earth to learn that Vanilla Ice was actually white. My parents forbid MTV (and that was back in the day when they actually played music videos and not the trash that is on there now).

    My point being I think I turned out to be a well-rounded teenager and adult and didn’t feel the least bit rebellious because I wasn’t able to listen to or watch scantily clad women on Sir Mix a-Lot’s Baby Got Back video. There is just to much out there right now for a pre-teen girl to comprehend and digest in a healthy way. I believe that is my job as a parent.

    And if your worried about her “hating” you or thinking you aren’t the “cool” dad…I promise she will get over it.

    Just my two-cents…which isn’t worth much! Great writing!

    • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

      stacie,

      you and i are the two extremes. you saw nothing because of heavy parent involvement, and i saw everything because of very little parent involvement.

      i think there’s a middle ground. namely, let them see it, but be there while they do it.

      believe me when i tell you one thing…pookie thinks i’m a colossal dork. so i’m not worried, at all, about being perceived as cool. the product of a divorce and over-indulgent relatives who literally buy her any and every single thing she wants, at times, she’s dangerously close to mistaking her privileged environment for one of entitlement.

      that’s where Lovie and i come in. we say “no” way more than we say “yes.” we hold her accountable and make her see her commitments through, when most others in her life take the path of least resistance. so i lost my “cool” card long, long ago.

      hope you’re well, and thank you so much for the comment!

  • http://sahdinlansing.com Chris (@tessasdad)

    Let’s try this again. Looks like my first comment got killed cause the connection where I’m at for this conference timed out…too long to redo but I’ll highlight for you.

    * It says a lot about you John as a person that even those who might not agree with your stance have shared their views so respectfully. That is rare in the online community these days and really nice to see.

    * Interesting that I’m at a conference about helping parents end violence in their homes. I was reading your post while sitting in a session about the impact of media violence. Very interesting stuff!

    * I lived 40 miles away from Ground Zero at the time of 9/11. I worked in a school that had 21…23 (can’t remember) students who lost a family member that day. That being said, I was vehemently opposed to our invasion in Iraq since we were going after the wrong perpetrators. In regards to the mosque, I worry that people are against this for the wrong reasons (misinformation, revenge, etc…). Our whole country and government has been based on rights which protect our freedom of speech, religion, etc… We can’t choose when and where to stand up for those rights. I follow Roger Ebert on Twitter and he posted something the other day about there being a mosque in the Pentagon. I haven’t had the time to research this to see if it’s true, but it’s interesting.

  • http://sahdinlansing.com Chris (@tessasdad)

    Let’s try this again. Looks like my first comment got killed cause the connection where I’m at for this conference timed out…too long to redo but I’ll highlight for you.

    * It says a lot about you John as a person that even those who might not agree with your stance have shared their views so respectfully. That is rare in the online community these days and really nice to see.

    * Interesting that I’m at a conference about helping parents end violence in their homes. I was reading your post while sitting in a session about the impact of media violence. Very interesting stuff!

    * I lived 40 miles away from Ground Zero at the time of 9/11. I worked in a school that had 21…23 (can’t remember) students who lost a family member that day. That being said, I was vehemently opposed to our invasion in Iraq since we were going after the wrong perpetrators. In regards to the mosque, I worry that people are against this for the wrong reasons (misinformation, revenge, etc…). Our whole country and government has been based on rights which protect our freedom of speech, religion, etc… We can’t choose when and where to stand up for those rights. I follow Roger Ebert on Twitter and he posted something the other day about there being a mosque in the Pentagon. I haven’t had the time to research this to see if it’s true, but it’s interesting.

  • Stacie Keller

    My last cent…

    You and several other commentors mentioned that your denial will lead to Pookie’s increased desire to seek out the forbidden.

    I just don’t think that will be the case as long as the time is taken to explain why you will not allow her to do something and she understands it comes from a place of care and love. She will learn her self-worth from the ones around her that just want to love and protect her, lord knows she isn’t going to learn it from the lyrics of squeezing buns and smak’n hoes.

    Just seems like a no brainer…your first paragraph was your pure parental gut reaction (instinct if you will) then you thought about it too much and overanalyzed it with all the PC bull*hit.

    • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

      stacie,

      spend all the pennies you want, my dear. because (in my humble opinion) that’s what you’re doing — namely throwing them in a well after having made a wish, a well that might have granted a handful of such wishes back in the day, but one that has long since dried up. (no, this is not gonna segue into a global warming argument.) with respect, you don’t have a 9 year old. you cannot possibly imagine the media available to them now. even if you’re aware of them, you’re not living them. there are more television networks solely dedicated to their programs and music than there were TOTAL when we were growing up. think about that for a second.

      then think about this. at age 9, pookie is regularly required to go online to complete her homework. she’s better at a computer than my mother, who’s authored multiple award winning books and was, in her day, a cutting edge educator in the field of women’s studies. some of pook’s computer sites are networks where she’s able to interact with other children. once passed the “kindermusic” stage of parenting it doesn’t take long to discover that today’s world is far different from the one you’re comparing it to.

      you refute what i have said w/ regard to denial leading to Pookie’s increased desire to seek out the forbidden. yet i’ve seen it first hand. how can you possibly deny something i’ve actually experienced? consider the following: pookie asks me to access media i find objectionable. i put her off and explain carefully my hesitancy with terms like “values” and “inappropriate” and “self-worth.” yet the kids she hangs out with at school and the older kids she idolizes (her bio dad’s gfriend has a 15 year old and a freshman in college) all listen to the same stuff she wants to. (her dad even listens to the local hip-hop station.) so she’s constantly exposed to it. so much so that i notice she’s memorized some sexually charged lyrics, and sings them from time to time. she asks again to access media i find objectionable. so i, yet again, put her off, reciting my argument. a week or so later, what does she do? she raises the bar yet again by going online and writing down the lyrics, an act which led to this post.

      what happened? i followed your advice. i explained why i won’t allow her to access the music. yet, as her behavior clearly indicates, she desires it even more.

      you say i’m “overanalyzing w/ PC bullshit” instead of following my “pure parental gut reaction”? but what you call a “pure parental gut reaction” is what i call a gut reaction. and a gut reaction will not always further us down the path of good parenting. i.e. after a long day at work, i often come home to the trips losing their shit. do you know what my gut reaction is? to scream SHUT UP at the top of my lungs. is that, indeed, what i should do? after all, according to your argument above, that’s what my “pure parental gut reaction” seems to be. is stopping for a moment and thinking of a better way through that unpleasant moment in time “overanalyzing w/ PC bullshit?” i think not.

      simply put? you’re arguing a case you cannot possibly fully understand at this point. and your argument has some major holes in it, at least when applied to my specific case.

      goodness knows, there are no easy answers. goodness also knows that different perspectives, when clearly articulated, help enlighten. thank you for offering yours. you know good and well that i absolutely adore you. i always have. you’re one of my alltime faves, and i’m so thankful that you’ve opined her. like my buddy jack, you’re ALWAYS welcome to disagree w/ me.

  • Stacie Keller

    My last cent…

    You and several other commentors mentioned that your denial will lead to Pookie’s increased desire to seek out the forbidden.

    I just don’t think that will be the case as long as the time is taken to explain why you will not allow her to do something and she understands it comes from a place of care and love. She will learn her self-worth from the ones around her that just want to love and protect her, lord knows she isn’t going to learn it from the lyrics of squeezing buns and smak’n hoes.

    Just seems like a no brainer…your first paragraph was your pure parental gut reaction (instinct if you will) then you thought about it too much and overanalyzed it with all the PC bull*hit.

    • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

      stacie,

      spend all the pennies you want, my dear. because (in my humble opinion) that’s what you’re doing — namely throwing them in a well after having made a wish, a well that might have granted a handful of such wishes back in the day, but one that has long since dried up. (no, this is not gonna segue into a global warming argument.) with respect, you don’t have a 9 year old. you cannot possibly imagine the media available to them now. even if you’re aware of them, you’re not living them. there are more television networks solely dedicated to their programs and music than there were TOTAL when we were growing up. think about that for a second.

      then think about this. at age 9, pookie is regularly required to go online to complete her homework. she’s better at a computer than my mother, who’s authored multiple award winning books and was, in her day, a cutting edge educator in the field of women’s studies. some of pook’s computer sites are networks where she’s able to interact with other children. once passed the “kindermusic” stage of parenting it doesn’t take long to discover that today’s world is far different from the one you’re comparing it to.

      you refute what i have said w/ regard to denial leading to Pookie’s increased desire to seek out the forbidden. yet i’ve seen it first hand. how can you possibly deny something i’ve actually experienced? consider the following: pookie asks me to access media i find objectionable. i put her off and explain carefully my hesitancy with terms like “values” and “inappropriate” and “self-worth.” yet the kids she hangs out with at school and the older kids she idolizes (her bio dad’s gfriend has a 15 year old and a freshman in college) all listen to the same stuff she wants to. (her dad even listens to the local hip-hop station.) so she’s constantly exposed to it. so much so that i notice she’s memorized some sexually charged lyrics, and sings them from time to time. she asks again to access media i find objectionable. so i, yet again, put her off, reciting my argument. a week or so later, what does she do? she raises the bar yet again by going online and writing down the lyrics, an act which led to this post.

      what happened? i followed your advice. i explained why i won’t allow her to access the music. yet, as her behavior clearly indicates, she desires it even more.

      you say i’m “overanalyzing w/ PC bullshit” instead of following my “pure parental gut reaction”? but what you call a “pure parental gut reaction” is what i call a gut reaction. and a gut reaction will not always further us down the path of good parenting. i.e. after a long day at work, i often come home to the trips losing their shit. do you know what my gut reaction is? to scream SHUT UP at the top of my lungs. is that, indeed, what i should do? after all, according to your argument above, that’s what my “pure parental gut reaction” seems to be. is stopping for a moment and thinking of a better way through that unpleasant moment in time “overanalyzing w/ PC bullshit?” i think not.

      simply put? you’re arguing a case you cannot possibly fully understand at this point. and your argument has some major holes in it, at least when applied to my specific case.

      goodness knows, there are no easy answers. goodness also knows that different perspectives, when clearly articulated, help enlighten. thank you for offering yours. you know good and well that i absolutely adore you. i always have. you’re one of my alltime faves, and i’m so thankful that you’ve opined her. like my buddy jack, you’re ALWAYS welcome to disagree w/ me.

  • http://liayf.blogspot.com Seattledad

    That is a tough one and I think you are handling it correctly. Why, because you thought it through and made an informed decision. Good on you JCO.

  • http://liayf.blogspot.com Seattledad

    That is a tough one and I think you are handling it correctly. Why, because you thought it through and made an informed decision. Good on you JCO.

  • nas

    I’ve been listening to his music ever since the early ninetees. Good for him, one of the best rappers on earth. God loves him.

  • nas

    I’ve been listening to his music ever since the early ninetees. Good for him, one of the best rappers on earth. God loves him.

  • Nicki

    Ah, it seems I may be in the minority of commenting from the BTDT camp. As a parent of six from 25 to 16, I can tell you that you cannot control what your children will hear. You can, at some points in their lives control what music they listen to and what television they watch but by about 10, that goes to “hell in a handbasket” rather quickly.

    I had a friend who thought the route was to introduce her children to Christian rock music. It worked for a while but did not stop her children from listen to what their friends listened to eventually.

    I do believe that if we raise our children with morals and values, if we have a home that is open to discussion of why we dislike a song’s lyrics or a television show’s theme, we do more to help our children along the route to becoming well-adjusted adults at some point in the future.

    As for the Mosque, I do believe if all the paperwork is completed and the hoops jumped through it can go anywhere. I would say it is a bad PR job but that has no bearing on where the location is. I say this as a person who knew more than one who lost their lives that day and who lives with that memory – as we all do – in a different way than most as I was sitting down to breakfast on my 40th birthday as the planes flew into the WTC that morning.

  • Nicki

    Ah, it seems I may be in the minority of commenting from the BTDT camp. As a parent of six from 25 to 16, I can tell you that you cannot control what your children will hear. You can, at some points in their lives control what music they listen to and what television they watch but by about 10, that goes to “hell in a handbasket” rather quickly.

    I had a friend who thought the route was to introduce her children to Christian rock music. It worked for a while but did not stop her children from listen to what their friends listened to eventually.

    I do believe that if we raise our children with morals and values, if we have a home that is open to discussion of why we dislike a song’s lyrics or a television show’s theme, we do more to help our children along the route to becoming well-adjusted adults at some point in the future.

    As for the Mosque, I do believe if all the paperwork is completed and the hoops jumped through it can go anywhere. I would say it is a bad PR job but that has no bearing on where the location is. I say this as a person who knew more than one who lost their lives that day and who lives with that memory – as we all do – in a different way than most as I was sitting down to breakfast on my 40th birthday as the planes flew into the WTC that morning.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    I say this as a person who knew more than one who lost their lives that day and who lives with that memory – as we all do – in a different way than most as I was sitting down to breakfast on my 40th birthday as the planes flew into the WTC that morning.

    It is a crazy thing. My best friend was working at Cantor Fitzgerald. I was supposed to be in the city for a trade show at the Javits Center. We were going to get a drink at Windows of The World.

    As it worked out neither one of us were in the city for 9-11. But as people said, many of us knew people. One of my BILs worked at St Vincent’s- saw some of the victims come in.

    My nephews and niece live in N.J. They range in age from 6-10 and they all know about it. It is a crazy thing that happened not so long ago.

    Going to take some time and more distance to gain perspective.

    • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

      holy shit, jack. i lost a who worked at cantor fitzgerald.

    • Nicki

      You are very right, Jack. It is going to take distance to gain perspective. Unfortunately, it does not appear we have that luxury in the case of the Mosque. It is going to happen and we each need to come to our own terms with what happens – whether it is built or not.

      • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

        Hi Nicki,

        Nope, we aren’t going to be given the luxury of time. I just hope that we are able to come to terms with a minimum of fuss. I am very concerned about the level of hysteria and rhetoric surrounding this.

        I have been a part or witness to discussions that are not so calm or level headed.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    I say this as a person who knew more than one who lost their lives that day and who lives with that memory – as we all do – in a different way than most as I was sitting down to breakfast on my 40th birthday as the planes flew into the WTC that morning.

    It is a crazy thing. My best friend was working at Cantor Fitzgerald. I was supposed to be in the city for a trade show at the Javits Center. We were going to get a drink at Windows of The World.

    As it worked out neither one of us were in the city for 9-11. But as people said, many of us knew people. One of my BILs worked at St Vincent’s- saw some of the victims come in.

    My nephews and niece live in N.J. They range in age from 6-10 and they all know about it. It is a crazy thing that happened not so long ago.

    Going to take some time and more distance to gain perspective.

    • http://www.johncaveosborne.com johncaveosborne

      holy shit, jack. i lost a who worked at cantor fitzgerald.

    • Nicki

      You are very right, Jack. It is going to take distance to gain perspective. Unfortunately, it does not appear we have that luxury in the case of the Mosque. It is going to happen and we each need to come to our own terms with what happens – whether it is built or not.

      • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

        Hi Nicki,

        Nope, we aren’t going to be given the luxury of time. I just hope that we are able to come to terms with a minimum of fuss. I am very concerned about the level of hysteria and rhetoric surrounding this.

        I have been a part or witness to discussions that are not so calm or level headed.